Wednesday, January 24, 2007
50% of all blog posts contain alcohol
I'm a complete sucker for statistics/facts twisted around or built to strange conclusions in poems.
For example, from Clay Matthews' "A Pilgrim's Progress, or Lack Thereof" (in The Eleventh Muse 2006):
Or from Danielle Aquiline's "Autobiogeography" (in The Eleventh Muse 2007):
Or from Ben Lerner's "Mad Lib Elegy":
So it's no wonder that I'm working on a poem based on a similar approach. Not the next draft I'll be posting, but the one after that.
For example, from Clay Matthews' "A Pilgrim's Progress, or Lack Thereof" (in The Eleventh Muse 2006):
[Sorry, the first and last lines of that should be indented further, but I can't make the HTML do it.]
I calculated the various sections of my life
the other day, and I’ve spent nearly one-third
sleeping, one-thousandth running. On paper
I’m not as scared as I seem.
Or from Danielle Aquiline's "Autobiogeography" (in The Eleventh Muse 2007):
Fact: Maps are only 87% accurate.
Also fact: I am approximately 87% ocean.
Depending on how you look at it,
we are either surrounded by water, or water
is completely surrounded by us.
Or from Ben Lerner's "Mad Lib Elegy":
70% of pound animals will be euthanized.
94% of pound animals would be euthanized
if given the choice.
So it's no wonder that I'm working on a poem based on a similar approach. Not the next draft I'll be posting, but the one after that.
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Here's an interesting fact: the words mensa and menstruation both derive from the Sumerian word for measure. So, clearly, women are measurably smarter than men.
By the by: the words derive from Sanskrit, not Sumerian. Heidi fed me misinformation. And I believed her. So, clearly, women are smarter than men.
I can't help but notice, A.J. Patrick Liszkiewicz, that when you thought the information was CORRECT you had no problem with letting people think these facts were a product of your own research. Once the information becomes suspect .... it's all MY fault (when in fact I told him to WAIT so I could check again... and then he hung up on me!).
Don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, people. It's lies...all lies and no phone etiquitte.
Don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth, people. It's lies...all lies and no phone etiquitte.
For the record though, the crackpot idea that those two words were etymologically related WAS Adam's to begin with, and I didn't believe him. Mind you, I was the one pouring through the OED and various Latin dictionaries to prove him wrong (erm...) but the genius was not my own.
The Sanskrit word is "ma" or "mas" by the way, and also is reflected in Old German (Mond), Gothic (mena), Greek (metron), and any number of other fun languages no one speaks. It rears its head in English in the words 'month' and 'moon'. So - the menstruation connection makes sense.
My educated guess on the Latin ma/mensa connection comes from this little phrase out of the trusty Lewis & Short: "a money-dealer's table or counter." I think this indicates that the word "mensa" may have originated with trade/bartering (so far as I can tell this was its earliest usage though my Latin authors are hardly my intellectual stronghold) and thus, with measure. The word "mensarius" also has the dual meaning of "belonging to the table or counter" or, alternatively, "a money changer or banker." And Now I've Bored you. Good Day!
The Sanskrit word is "ma" or "mas" by the way, and also is reflected in Old German (Mond), Gothic (mena), Greek (metron), and any number of other fun languages no one speaks. It rears its head in English in the words 'month' and 'moon'. So - the menstruation connection makes sense.
My educated guess on the Latin ma/mensa connection comes from this little phrase out of the trusty Lewis & Short: "a money-dealer's table or counter." I think this indicates that the word "mensa" may have originated with trade/bartering (so far as I can tell this was its earliest usage though my Latin authors are hardly my intellectual stronghold) and thus, with measure. The word "mensarius" also has the dual meaning of "belonging to the table or counter" or, alternatively, "a money changer or banker." And Now I've Bored you. Good Day!
Dear Steven,
We have your comment boxes. Bring us the artifact, and the boxes will not be harmed. You have twenty-four hours. For every hour you are late, we will kill one word-verification strip.
Do not underestimate us, Steven. We speak Sanskrit.
Best,
Heidi and A. J.
We have your comment boxes. Bring us the artifact, and the boxes will not be harmed. You have twenty-four hours. For every hour you are late, we will kill one word-verification strip.
Do not underestimate us, Steven. We speak Sanskrit.
Best,
Heidi and A. J.
This is what I enjoy about blogging -- start out reading an innocuous post making some humorous comments about statistics, and then find yourself in the middle of a kidnapping and blood feud over Sanskrit word derivations.
According to several sources I Googled (including the Online Etymology Dictionary, cf. below, and Wiktionary), and a Latin-English dictionary I have at home, "mensa" in Latin means "table." The organization Mensa was named with the notion of a "round table" in mind, i.e. a forum for lively discussion.
The Online Etymology Dictionary traces "measure" back to a hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*ma-/*me-," from which derives the Latin "metiri" ("to measure") and "mensura" ("a measuring"). No Sanskrit derivative is given.
The same source indicates that "menstruation" and "menstruate" are both later formations originating from "menstrual," which itself traces back to the Latin "mensis" ("month"); which in turn traces back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*menes-" ("moon, month"). No Sanskrit derivative is given.
The same source traces "moon," as a noun (originally a rough synonym in Germanic languages for "month") back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*me(n)ses-" ("moon, month"), from which derive the Latin "mensis" ("month") -- whence "menstrual," etc. -- and the Sanskrit "masah" ("moon, month").
And the same source traces "mind," as a noun, back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*men-" ("think, remember, have one's mind aroused"), from which derives the Latin "mens" ("mind, understanding, reason") and the Sanskrit "matih" ("thought") and "munih" ("sage, seer").
None of the derivation threads I found for "measure," "moon" or "mind" mentions any word for "table" as either a root or a derivative.
Based on all of the above, though "mensa" and "menstruation" and their various roots and related derivatives may exhibit phonetic and (in Romanized alphabets) orthographic resemblances, the suggestion of a common derivation seems to me tenuous.
Incidentally, regarding the offhand comment characterizing Sanskrit as one among "languages no one speaks": as it happens, I studied Sanskrit, very briefly, many years ago. The instructor, a native of India, told us that at that time there were perhaps 500 families in India who spoke Sanskrit as their primary language. (Speaking of statistics...) This compared with Latin and ancient Greek, which were no longer spoken other than for religious ritual purposes and in classrooms.
Heidi and A.J. -- I want one-third of whatever you manage to exact in ranson from Steven. If you don't pay up, I'll post another comment.
>:~)
According to several sources I Googled (including the Online Etymology Dictionary, cf. below, and Wiktionary), and a Latin-English dictionary I have at home, "mensa" in Latin means "table." The organization Mensa was named with the notion of a "round table" in mind, i.e. a forum for lively discussion.
The Online Etymology Dictionary traces "measure" back to a hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*ma-/*me-," from which derives the Latin "metiri" ("to measure") and "mensura" ("a measuring"). No Sanskrit derivative is given.
The same source indicates that "menstruation" and "menstruate" are both later formations originating from "menstrual," which itself traces back to the Latin "mensis" ("month"); which in turn traces back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*menes-" ("moon, month"). No Sanskrit derivative is given.
The same source traces "moon," as a noun (originally a rough synonym in Germanic languages for "month") back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*me(n)ses-" ("moon, month"), from which derive the Latin "mensis" ("month") -- whence "menstrual," etc. -- and the Sanskrit "masah" ("moon, month").
And the same source traces "mind," as a noun, back to the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European root "*men-" ("think, remember, have one's mind aroused"), from which derives the Latin "mens" ("mind, understanding, reason") and the Sanskrit "matih" ("thought") and "munih" ("sage, seer").
None of the derivation threads I found for "measure," "moon" or "mind" mentions any word for "table" as either a root or a derivative.
Based on all of the above, though "mensa" and "menstruation" and their various roots and related derivatives may exhibit phonetic and (in Romanized alphabets) orthographic resemblances, the suggestion of a common derivation seems to me tenuous.
Incidentally, regarding the offhand comment characterizing Sanskrit as one among "languages no one speaks": as it happens, I studied Sanskrit, very briefly, many years ago. The instructor, a native of India, told us that at that time there were perhaps 500 families in India who spoke Sanskrit as their primary language. (Speaking of statistics...) This compared with Latin and ancient Greek, which were no longer spoken other than for religious ritual purposes and in classrooms.
Heidi and A.J. -- I want one-third of whatever you manage to exact in ranson from Steven. If you don't pay up, I'll post another comment.
>:~)
Andrew - I was drinking at the time in an effort to tangentially relate myself to Steven's blog posting, Dogfish Head Chicory Stout (which is excellent, btw). The dictionary is dry, my ability to use homophones correctly, however, suffered disastrous consequences.
Lyle - Maybe Lewis & Short play a little more fast and loose (being accomplished Latinists and ancient language buffs) than do the Etymological Dictionary people. As you clearly know, Sanskrit is considered the most closely related of modern-ish languages to that hypothesized Indo-European proto-language, so it makes sense that some of its words are the same/similar as the proto-indo-european languages that the Etymological dictionary cites.
As for your disbelief re: Mensa/tables/etc, I'll give you the L&S entry I based my musing upon: Mensa, -ae I. f [Sanscr, ma, measure; Gr. metron; cf. manus, mane, etc.], a table for any purpose, as a dining-table; a market-stand for meat, vegetables, etc.; a money-dealer's table or counter, a sacrificial table, etc.
And, just for good measure, Mensis : I. gen. plur. regularly mensium; freq. mensum, Plaut. Most. 1, 1, 78 ; Cic. Phil. 12, 9, 22; id. Verr 2, 74, 182 al.; Caes. B. G. 1, 5, 3; Ov. M. 8, 500; id. F. 5, 187; 424; Liv. 3, 24, 4; 3, 25, 4; Plin. 7, 11, 9, § 49 et saep.; v. Neue, Formenl. 1. p. 265 sq.), m. [root ma-, measure; Sanscr. mas; Gr. mên, the measure of time; cf. Goth. mena; Germ. Mond; Engl. moon, month] , a month.
Given that ALL of the words with an men- initial syllable in my handy Cassell’s relate to the measure of time or quantity (often money), with the exception of “mensa” which also is glossed as: “”the table or counter of a money-changer” (Pl, Cic., Hor.), I’m going to stick by my initial assertion of a possible conceptual and etymological connection, gut-feeling though it is. For argument’s sake, other men- words & definitions:
mensa –table for eating, sacrificial table, table or counter of a money changer
mensarius (derived from mensa, according to Cassell) – a member of a board regulating payments out of the treasury
mensio (from metior, metiri, mensus sum/ the Latin equivalent of that Greek metron, see L&S, above) a measuring
mensis – a month
mensor – (again from metior) a measurer, a measurer of land, surveyor
menstruus, menstrualis, (both from mensis) – monthly, lasting for a month
mensula – a little table
mensura – (again from metior) a measuring, amount, proportion, a measure, standard, that by which anything is measured.
Maybe I’ll dust off my key to the Classics library and bulldoze through one or two of their multi-volume sets just for the hell of it. Or I could shortcut and ask one of my more etymologically-savvy colleagues. Until then, I’m going to use the technique that Adam used on me to get this whole thing going – until you can prove me wrong ... I’m going to pretend that I’m right!
Lyle - Maybe Lewis & Short play a little more fast and loose (being accomplished Latinists and ancient language buffs) than do the Etymological Dictionary people. As you clearly know, Sanskrit is considered the most closely related of modern-ish languages to that hypothesized Indo-European proto-language, so it makes sense that some of its words are the same/similar as the proto-indo-european languages that the Etymological dictionary cites.
As for your disbelief re: Mensa/tables/etc, I'll give you the L&S entry I based my musing upon: Mensa, -ae I. f [Sanscr, ma, measure; Gr. metron; cf. manus, mane, etc.], a table for any purpose, as a dining-table; a market-stand for meat, vegetables, etc.; a money-dealer's table or counter, a sacrificial table, etc.
And, just for good measure, Mensis : I. gen. plur. regularly mensium; freq. mensum, Plaut. Most. 1, 1, 78 ; Cic. Phil. 12, 9, 22; id. Verr 2, 74, 182 al.; Caes. B. G. 1, 5, 3; Ov. M. 8, 500; id. F. 5, 187; 424; Liv. 3, 24, 4; 3, 25, 4; Plin. 7, 11, 9, § 49 et saep.; v. Neue, Formenl. 1. p. 265 sq.), m. [root ma-, measure; Sanscr. mas; Gr. mên, the measure of time; cf. Goth. mena; Germ. Mond; Engl. moon, month] , a month.
Given that ALL of the words with an men- initial syllable in my handy Cassell’s relate to the measure of time or quantity (often money), with the exception of “mensa” which also is glossed as: “”the table or counter of a money-changer” (Pl, Cic., Hor.), I’m going to stick by my initial assertion of a possible conceptual and etymological connection, gut-feeling though it is. For argument’s sake, other men- words & definitions:
mensa –table for eating, sacrificial table, table or counter of a money changer
mensarius (derived from mensa, according to Cassell) – a member of a board regulating payments out of the treasury
mensio (from metior, metiri, mensus sum/ the Latin equivalent of that Greek metron, see L&S, above) a measuring
mensis – a month
mensor – (again from metior) a measurer, a measurer of land, surveyor
menstruus, menstrualis, (both from mensis) – monthly, lasting for a month
mensula – a little table
mensura – (again from metior) a measuring, amount, proportion, a measure, standard, that by which anything is measured.
Maybe I’ll dust off my key to the Classics library and bulldoze through one or two of their multi-volume sets just for the hell of it. Or I could shortcut and ask one of my more etymologically-savvy colleagues. Until then, I’m going to use the technique that Adam used on me to get this whole thing going – until you can prove me wrong ... I’m going to pretend that I’m right!
Until then, I’m going to use the technique that Adam used on me to get this whole thing going – until you can prove me wrong ... I’m going to pretend that I’m right!
No, no, no... it's like this, Heidi. You say:
Until you can prove me wrong, I am right. Then, as soon as you prove my wrongness to me, I become right again, as I now know the right answer via your proving it to me. So I'm always right.
And then, when they express disbelief, you say, Oh yeah? Well, prove me wrong.
And then, my dear Heidi, you giggle.
P. S. -- You're in, Lyle. Hopefully, you possess the constitution to see this thing through...
No, no, no... it's like this, Heidi. You say:
Until you can prove me wrong, I am right. Then, as soon as you prove my wrongness to me, I become right again, as I now know the right answer via your proving it to me. So I'm always right.
And then, when they express disbelief, you say, Oh yeah? Well, prove me wrong.
And then, my dear Heidi, you giggle.
P. S. -- You're in, Lyle. Hopefully, you possess the constitution to see this thing through...
The word "atman," incidentally, which in Sanskrit means "breath," with some additional connotative meanings such as "spirit" and related concepts, also exists in German and has roughly the same cluster of meanings. I've found the word in German-English dictionaries, and it occurs at least once in the poetry of Rilke. (I think it's in the Duino Elegies if I remember correctly, though I'm not positive about that. But somewhere in his poetry.)
Other than the Sanskrit reference, this doesn't really have anything to do with the present discussion, I just think it's interesting...
(One Dogfish Head of Chicory Stout, coming right up.)
;~)
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Other than the Sanskrit reference, this doesn't really have anything to do with the present discussion, I just think it's interesting...
(One Dogfish Head of Chicory Stout, coming right up.)
;~)
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